Behind the Curtain: An Interview with NASAGA’s Partnered Podcast

For the last year, the NASAGA blog has proudly featured the 20-Sided Gamified Podcast, hosted and produced by NASAGA member Jared Fishman. In this blog post, we sit down with Jared and get his reflections on podcasting and gaming. This post is shortened to best fit as a blog; the audio of the full interview is here.

What made you decide to start a podcast in the first place?

First and foremost, I've always enjoyed podcasts. I like listening to music when I paint, build terrain models, or think up games, but I actually enjoy podcasts more. Podcasters like Conan O'Brien or Marc Maron or Joe Rogan, love them or hate them, agree with them or not, they just sound like they're having fun! 

I'm paid to talk. If you think about my life and my career, I'm in front of people all the time. I enjoy having conversations. There's something really fun about a shared experience, to have conversations about important things. So both of those points led me to think: it might actually be fun to do a podcast. 

There are some podcasts out there about games that are kind of fun, but they're also really specific. There's a lot about D&D. There's a lot of videos about unboxings, and how to play things, but I don't think that there is a podcast that really encompasses all elements of gaming. That was a big part of my decision as well. 

NASAGA had a lot to do with it. I was on the board for a short period of time and it was hard for me to find the time to help the organization. Since NASAGA is so deeply tied to the practice of professional gaming, putting a podcast out there about that was a great way for me to help the organization and get more ideas out there about games.

Finally, in my life I've always had a superior. I've always had somebody above me telling me how to do my job or how to run a game. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy working with people. But this was a time where I wanted to do something on my own. I interview who I want. I talk to and work with the people that I want. I wanted the podcast to be my vision and my vision only. 

The most simple answer to this question? I really like games and I really, really like to talk about them.

What have been your most memorable moments on the podcast, where you just went “Wow, this is amazing!”

I can honestly say that there was something moving in every episode I’ve recorded. One episode that I would highlight was with Tory Brown, who wrote Votes for Women, and Kevin Bertram, who runs Fort Circle Games. Kevin and Tory talked about a vision of getting some grants at the national level to get that game into schools. You could roll that game out in every state in the United States and get people playing it. Kids are gonna understand the women's suffrage movement more effectively and they're gonna have fun while doing it. If I could wave my magic wand or if I was a billionaire, I would make that happen tomorrow. That was definitely a big genuine moment for me. 

What's the biggest difference between a podcast and other forms of non-peer reviewed public outreach like blogs, op-eds, etc?

I think podcasting is no different than when the printing press was invented (and I know what a grandiose statement that is.) I think podcasts and YouTube videos are now the way that people learn. And I know that statement clashes with what I do for a living: I teach people how to write, and I think the act of writing is really important. But I don’t know that our society consumes the written word the way it once did. Will the average person pull out the owner’s manual when their dishwasher stops working? Will they seek out a really sophisticated piece on which types of washer/dryers are the best to buy? No, they’re going to go onto YouTube. Will they go to Fox/CNN/MSNBC for news? Or will they go to a podcast on a topic where they hear their peers talking about it? Now don’t get me wrong: even as I say this, there are elements of that argument that I don’t agree with. Whether we like it or not, I think podcasts are the modern way of reaching people. 

What surprised you the most about podcasting?

How much time it takes! It’s a lot of work. And if you want it to sound good, it costs money. You have to invest in yourself to make it work. You can make some of that money back with ads. We do a lot of work with the public beyond the podcast, and that helps recoup some of that money. 

I’ve also discovered that it’s really helpful to come at it from a team perspective: having a sound engineer, a co-host, really great mentors for decision-making. It clears away a lot of the difficult parts of the show and lets me focus on what I’m good at: asking questions and creating a nice experience for guests and listeners alike. When I first started, I was doing everything on my own, and I was surprised at how much energy it took. Once I started bringing people into the fold who believed in the show, being able to divide the labor up amongst all of us was really helpful. For example: covering a convention is really hard when it’s just you. Having a team enables me to do things better than I ever could on my own. And letting them handle the things they’re good at creates a much better product in the end.

What would cause you to end the podcast?

I think that’s a really important question, and I think more people should ask themselves that question regarding the things they do. For me, I have a simple answer: when it’s no longer fun. When the time commitment and all of the work that goes into it makes the medium not fun, it’s time to stop. I’ve experienced that before in other contexts too. I loved being in a band. I loved going into New York City, playing shows, touring around the country, writing music, working with other musicians. But when it all became too much and wasn’t fun, I stopped and moved on to something else. And when it happens to the podcast, I’ll move on as well. 

If you could go back in time and tell your pre-podcast self something about podcasting, what would it be?

I have an answer to that, but if you ask me this again six months from now, I’ll probably have a better answer. My advice right now to my pre-podcast self would be the same advice I’d give about anything: Take. Your. Time. I often think too much about reactions and don’t spend enough time on making the art the best it can be. When I recorded my very first episode with Rick Priestley, I shot for the stars but not necessarily in the best way. I was working way too quickly trying to develop episodes and guests, instead of letting this effort work organically. I just have to remind myself: slow your roll. Don’t think about 20-Sided Gamified being the best gaming podcast in the world. Just focus on recording some really great episodes.